Listen Now

You can watch the video on YouTube (above) or listen on these platforms:

Summary

In today’s conversation, Marilyn Vancil and I explore how the image of God—the imago Dei—is uniquely expressed in each Enneagram type. While the Enneagram was developed in the 60s and 70s as a psychological tool for ego reduction, early teachings often focused more on what’s broken in us than what’s beautiful. That began to shift as voices like Russ Hudson and Marilyn Vancil helped reframe the Enneagram—not just as a map of our struggles, but as a window into our strengths, our goodness, and the ways we reflect God.

Get the Notes

📑 FREE PDF Download: Spiritual Growth Series Podcast Notes
Get the bullet-point notes for all 6 episodes—key insights, no fluff, easy to revisit.

👉🏼 Download here: https://witty-atom-266.myflodesk.com/zd4dme4pgf 

Spiritual Growth Series

🎙️ Episodes in the Spiritual Growth Series

• Spiritual Identity, Idealized Self, and Avoidance Patterns | Lisa Vischer (Ep. 7)
• Spiritual Practices for Each Enneagram Type | Pastor A.J. Sherrill (Ep. 8)
• How Each Enneagram Type Relates to God | Lindsey Lewis (Ep. 9)
• Image of God in Each Enneagram Type | Marilyn Vancil (Ep. 10)
• What Every Type Wants & What They Settle For | Jesse Eubanks (Ep. 11)
• Enneagram Vices and Virtues | Hunter Mobley (Ep. 12)

The Guest

👉🏼 Follow Marilyn Vancil

https://marilynvancil.com/ 

40-Day Enneagram Devotional

📚 Get a personalized devotional for your Enneagram type:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08VGPJTX6

Read The Transcript

Tyler Zach (00:20)

Welcome to Typish, an Enneagram podcast where we explore how your personality shows up in all of life. I'm your host Tyler Zach, and in each episode I connect you with leading experts on how your personality impacts your relationships, mental health, spirituality, and everything in between.

The Typish summits I host include speakers and attendees from all kinds of faith traditions and backgrounds. But because I started my Enneagram journey as a pastor and wrote a 40-day devotional for every Enneagram type, I have a large Christian audience — and the topic of spiritual growth is the number one request I get. So I decided to open up the vault and share six conversations from my Gospel for Enneagram summits back in 2023 as a special six-week podcast series. If you'd like the bullet point notes for all six episodes, you can grab them right now by clicking the link in the show notes and downloading the PDF as a free gift.

Today my guest is Marilyn Vancil, an Enneagram author, teacher, and spiritual director. Her book, Self to Lose, Self to Find: Using the Enneagram to Uncover Your True, God-Gifted Self, was actually the very first Enneagram book I ever read — a pastor recommended it to me. Since then she has written a second book called Beyond the Enneagram: An Invitation to Experience a More Christ-Centered Life with God. You can head over to MarilynVancil.com to learn more about her and her work.

In today's conversation, Marilyn and I talk about how the image of God — the imago Dei — shows up in each Enneagram type. The Enneagram started out as a psychological tool in the 1960s and '70s, primarily as an ego-reduction tool, and there weren't very many positive things said about each type. That is, until authors like Russ Hudson and Marilyn Vancil came along and showed us how each type has beautiful positive aspects too. So I think you are going to feel very affirmed and encouraged as you listen. Let's jump in.

Tyler Zach (02:30)

I'm eager to hear — where did you first learn about the Enneagram?

Marilyn (02:34)

It was 35 years ago. I was in my late thirties. My husband Jeff was on Young Life staff at the time — he did that for 30 years — and one of the leaders at a conference gave Jeff these cassette tapes. They were by Richard Rohr, who we'd never heard of before. The cassette tape set had this really weird picture on the front, and the name of it was "Naming Your Illusions" — which did not fit in my vocabulary as a follower of Jesus. I was like, what is this?

Jeff actually listened to the tapes first while he was working out in the yard with the big boombox — back when you had to flip the tape over and everything. Then he told me, "I think you'd really like this." He said he'd been through all the types up to Eight and had found himself right away but hadn't found me yet. He had one more to go. And then I could hear him laughing as he was listening to Type Nine — which is what I identify with.

So I said, okay, I guess I'd better listen. And when I did, I was so hooked. I just felt known and understood, which felt so important — especially for me as a Type Nine who tends to feel like I should just stay in the background. It gave me a lot of confidence and an awareness that I have a personality, that I matter.

For Jeff, who identifies as a Three, it was more convicting. He was like, "This is terrible. Yes, this is me" — it was kind of an assault on his soul to have to admit that. So everybody has a different reaction, but that was ours.

For a long time it was just a personal resource for me. At that time I had to really hunt for books. The one that was most pivotal was Richard Rohr's book from a Christian perspective. I started digging in and would just cry a lot as I was reading. It really set me free in a lot of ways.

I always knew I wanted to teach it, but my first career was raising our four children, so my life was consumed with that. But whenever I got in a bad mood or felt stuck, I'd go back to my Enneagram notes and go, "Oh, that's why I feel this way."

Then in 2016, I felt God woke me up one morning and said: Self to Lose, Self to Find. I knew the title, I knew what it was about, I knew the structure right away. Writing a book was so different for me — not something I ever dreamed of doing. I thought I was going to be the lone Christian voice out there trying to invite people to experience the Enneagram. And then all of a sudden this flood — I call it a tidal wave — came in, and I was on the surfboard. I was part of the whole movement of God bringing the Enneagram especially into the conservative evangelical world where it had not been very popular or welcomed.

Tyler Zach (07:07)

As I was doing a deep dive into Enneagram history, one of the early influencers was a man named Ramon Llull, who lived from 1232 to 1316 AD. His diagrams were helpful because they helped us visualize moving from vice to virtue. And one more thing worth mentioning — in his diagrams he had something called "the dignities of God," which were things that reflected God's image in creation. They don't correlate exactly with what we have today, but he was doing that work of showing how our personality can reflect these dignities of God.

And one of the things that's unique about what you're doing is — if you look back at Enneagram history, you have Gurdjieff, Ichazo, and Naranjo, the three most influential figures from the 1900s on. None of them talked about that. None of them talked about the dignities of God. And that's why Sandra Maitri said that after she finished her SAT group with Naranjo, she was severely depressed — because it was taught entirely from a negative point of view, like, here's what you need to get rid of.

So I love how you've reincorporated that idea Ramon Llull had — looking at the image of God — because it brings in that positive aspect that hasn't been taught in Enneagram circles before. Thank you for being on the leading edge of bringing that back. So let's talk about it — how do Ones reflect the image of God?

Marilyn (08:58)

Yes. All these types are so beautiful. Ones are a reflection of God's goodness and rightness — the fact that there is perfection possible, that God is perfect and holy and right and good, and that God's heart is for everyone to experience goodness, for the world to be a good place where people experience goodness and do good and help others.

So the Type One's longing for perfection stems from that desire to experience goodness and rightness and to bring it into the world. They get stuck on being judgmental and hard on themselves and hard on others — because deep down, they really want to experience even for a moment that full perfection that's built into them. They want all to be good and right, even if just for a moment. And they want to express that in the world — to help the world be a better place. That's why they're always seeing what's wrong and what needs to be put right.

And so if they can just honor that, they can see: oh, I'm trying to do this on my own effort. This is the case for all of us — I want to create something good, but I'm doing it in my own strength rather than recognizing this is God in me, and asking God to use it in the way that will truly be good and right. That's the Type One.

Tyler Zach (10:47)

That's beautiful. I love learning that about Ones — yes, they can be critical, trying to get things right. They're burdened by the world not being in order and as it should be. And so that burden sends them out into the world to help, to co-labor with God, to bring about the kind of world God designed for us. So it's beautiful.

Marilyn (11:25)

Yeah. And I think a lot of Ones — we all love nature, but Ones in particular feel very alive in nature because they feel like they're off duty. They can't do anything to fix it. Even if there's a fallen tree in the forest, they don't feel like they have to put it right. This is just right. I'm off duty and I can relax. Until they see a piece of litter on the ground — but they can remind themselves, "I'm not responsible for that."

Tyler Zach (12:07)

And that's why Ones can really come alive on vacation too. All right — Twos.

Marilyn (12:07)

They are a beautiful reflection of God's unconditional love and nurture. Their heart — as is the heart of God — is that everybody in the world should be loved fully and their needs should be met. They feel that, they see it, they want it for themselves. They want to experience that unconditional love and nurture. They often dismiss that for themselves because they're so busy meeting the needs of others. But really in their heart of hearts, they want to be loved the same way they share love with others.

That's why their antenna is always picking up needs wherever they turn — they feel the burden to make love happen, like it's up to me to fix this by meeting needs and being an expression of God's love. And then they can overdo it: sacrificing, becoming a martyr, not taking care of themselves, making themselves indispensable. But it really comes down to this heart they have — God's heart — that all people are lovable, should be loved, and their needs should be met. And they love being a conduit of that in the world. It's very satisfying for them when they do help people.

Tyler Zach (13:34)

Yes. Jesus came all the way from heaven to earth to pursue us and take on flesh. Twos pursue us with that same intensity. Especially as a Three — someone who can put tasks over people and get caught up in the work — I can look at Twos and be reminded that God is a God who puts people over tasks, who pursues, who creates space for us. Twos are always the first to show up when somebody's car breaks down. My dad is always over at my house trying to figure out how he can bless us and come to our rescue. Just know, Twos, that you are loved and wanted.

Marilyn (14:22)

Yes, absolutely.

Tyler Zach (14:25)

Okay — time for Threes.

Marilyn (14:27)

Type Three — they are a reflection of God's radiance. They are future-oriented types who see a future that could be. They see beyond what is now and ask, let's make it better — not in the way Ones do, wanting to fix it, but in the way of let's make this a hopeful place. No one and nothing is beyond hope.

They live to envision something. My husband does this all the time — he can envision a big vision for a city or for a group they're going to serve, and he can inspire people to join him in this great adventure of bringing hope. And the piece of radiance that I really love about Threes is that they believe — as does God — that everybody should be a star. Everybody can be a star and reach their potential. So Threes are great champions for people — not "I conquered this," but cheerleading others: you can improve, you can be better. They see the radiance in every human being, the potential for radiance, and they love to optimize themselves and optimize others.

They just bring hope. And we need that right now. We need people who are hopeful and who know there's a better story ahead.

Tyler Zach (16:09)

I love that. As I look at my own story — even thinking back to 2015 when I planted a church — I can see the vision-casting, the hope, the desire to be a light in the neighborhood, to work with other churches to meet the greatest needs of that community. I can see it now, but I never really thought of that as a reflection of God. God is hopeful, and he'll use Threes to put an exclamation point on that hope.

And one thing to note — we all have wings, so you might find yourself resonating with not just your core number but the type on either side. I resonate with the Four wing as well as we go around the numbers. So let's talk about Fours.

Marilyn (17:17)

Fours — beautiful, truly beautiful Fours — are a reflection of God's originality, God's beauty, and God's depth. They sense that immeasurable depth of God and they want to mine it. A lot of it comes out in inward feeling, because there's something there and they're looking for meaning, looking for something they can't quite put into words. That's why so many Fours are artistic — not necessarily in the classic arts, but in the way they speak, the way they use metaphors, the way they do life. They just have an artistry about them because they're trying to express something inexpressible. They put it in a painting, a poem, a dance, a metaphor — trying to grasp that meaning.

They also see every moment of the unfolding of life as original. They have that nostalgia — leaving one moment to go to the next, one age to another, feels like they're losing something because it was so beautiful. But then they appreciate the unfolding originality of every day. They appreciate beauty and find great meaning in it — not just "that's a beautiful flower," but absorbing the texture, the depth, the beauty of every person and of creation. And they have such an attunement to feelings that they can deeply understand and absorb what other people are going through. They're very empathetic. So it's really beautiful.

Tyler Zach (19:21)

I think it's easy for our culture to undervalue Fours because we live in a very Three culture — efficiency, productivity. But we look back at Michelangelo and those great artists who were commissioned by the church, paid handsomely to inspire and use art to induce meaning into worship. We can't imagine living without a sense of meaning and beauty in our lives. Music is the first thing we reach for when we're sad or angry — it's the poetry, the language that helps us feel and navigate those emotions. But sometimes we don't realize that's what we need and what's blessing us. Or we're not willing to pay for it — we want free music. Fours can be undervalued. And they're not always understood, because they can be more emotional, and that's not always welcomed.

Marilyn (20:27)

Well, and they've sensed that — "Nobody understands me." And that hurts.

Tyler Zach (20:42)

Yeah, exactly. All right — Type Fives.

Marilyn (20:46)

Type Five — they are a reflection of God's wisdom and God's insight. They have an awareness of how things fit together. They like to connect the dots. They gather information, but then the wisdom piece — if they tap into that — it's not just about collecting data. They want to live wisely. That data they collect informs them how to live wisely and not make foolish decisions, not live casually or carelessly, but really sincerely and well.

And they are just insightful. They have a sense of understanding things that most of us don't understand, but they see. They see the meaning in things and can speak into that when they offer themselves — which isn't always easy for them to do. But when they do, it's astounding how they articulate and explain things, connect the dots, and share that wisdom of how it all fits together in the bigger picture.

Tyler Zach (22:04)

Many people might be familiar with the Bible Project and all the videos they're creating. Both of the founders are self-proclaimed Type Fives. That's one example of how the riches of the Bible come alive through Fives who engage the world — not harboring their wisdom but being generous with it, getting it out there and blessing us.

Marilyn (22:33)

And their understanding of the whole story — and then breaking it down so it makes sense to the rest of us. It's really amazing.

Tyler Zach (22:43)

Well put. All right — Type Six.

Marilyn (22:47)

Type Six is our reflection of God's faithfulness and loyalty. When you think about the faithfulness of God, it's like there is ground beneath our feet that we can count on — God is reliable. "Great is thy faithfulness" — one of my favorite hymns — because we just know the faithfulness of God. He is always with us, faithful to us and to his beloved creation. And so Type Sixes — you can count on them. They're dependable, reliable, they want to do what they're called to do. They are fiercely loyal — to people, to institutions, to work, to whatever cause they're a part of. They will persevere through any challenges that come against them.

And that commitment to doing things well leads them to wanting to be prepared — to thinking ahead about what could go wrong. I heard a great perspective on this at a workshop I was doing. I said sixes tend to think of worst-case scenarios. And a woman raised her hand and said, "No we don't. We think of best-case scenarios. I think of everything that could go wrong and plan for it — so that in the end, we'll have the best-case scenario." I thought that was such a great reframe. It shifted my view of that tendency away from "Debbie Downers" and toward: no, they are actually working for the best case and they want to do it well. That loyalty and faithfulness — you can count on them.

Type Sevens — they are a reflection of God's joy and abundance. They're optimistic. God is an abundant God. There is so much we could experience, and Sevens have this awareness that there's just so much — so much to do and experience. They want to experience it all. They want to see life through a lens of joy and optimism and community that's having fun together. So they bring that optimistic stance into the world.

Their challenge is to recognize that joy comes from the Lord, not from external experiences — that joy is present today, not just somewhere out in the future that they have to plan for and get ready for. But that joy and abundance is contagious. Scripture talks about the joy of the Lord and the abundance of the Lord — the unmeasurable grace and love — and the Seven just wants to experience it all and bring people along. They feel like others are missing out if they don't join in. So they pursue those experiences, which really invites other people along. It's a wonderful gift — even though avoiding what's not joyful is their growth edge.

Tyler Zach (26:46)

I love Sevens. A lot of my best friends are Sevens. I've seen Seven pastors change church culture. A lot of churches, in my experience, had been more One-ish cultures. But I was part of a church planting movement that planted over 13 churches in 10 years, and a lot of those pastors were Sevens. People would walk into these new church plants and say, man, there is so much life here. The pastors are giving high fives as people come in the building. There's just this abundance of energy and joy. And I think of Jesus when he said, "I came that they might have life and have it abundantly." Sevens are like, yes — I'll do that.

So thank you, Sevens, for helping us experience that there is pleasure in God's presence — pleasures at his right hand forevermore.

Marilyn (28:05)

Yeah, that's great.

Type Eights — they're a reflection of God's power and protection. Power is a loaded word these days, but it's not oppressive power — it's the dunamis power of God, an activating power that comes underneath and activates people and moves them forward. Eights understand power, and they believe — as a reflection of God's image — that everybody should have agency over their own lives. No one should be oppressed, vulnerable, or without resource. That's why Eights are often social activists who care deeply for those in their community who are underserved, under-resourced, and in need. And then they fight the systems that got those people there, that created the power differential in the first place.

They bring so much passion to that kind of work — and passion for themselves. And they can overdo that, as we know, and come across as intimidating or too strong. But it really comes from a seat of passion and vigor. I love the protection piece — Eights want to protect the vulnerable. And through their own experience of needing to protect themselves, they've developed that exterior shell. Their own hearts don't want to be betrayed or hurt, so they come across as strong and tough.

So many Eights say, "Nobody ever sees my soft underbelly" — because they can come across as a lot. But they really have tender, tender hearts. They're protecting their own heart, and they also have that gift of protecting others from the forces that could take away their agency and their strength. They champion people to be strong and to step up. It's really beautiful.

Tyler Zach (30:34)

Eights are so different from a lot of personality types and can be easily misread and judged. But when you understand how God wired them — with that electrical charge, that power — you can see it's not arrogance. I mean, it could be sometimes. But in general, it's self-assurance, and that power is a God-given energy to charge the church. Just as Jesus emptied himself of his power and filled us with the power of the Holy Spirit, Eights can release that power to empower other people — to charge the hill and do amazing things we never thought we could do. There's just such a dynamism to that.

And I love that I learned the Enneagram before I started co-leading with my Type Eight co-leader Jameson, because I feel like I can appreciate him and lean on him and see his strengths more. I love that you said power can sometimes be seen as negative in our culture. I remember in the Type Nine book talking about how Nines need to take inventory of the power they actually have — because they often don't feel like they have any.

Marilyn (32:20)

Right. And for Eights it's the reverse — they know they have power. It's just a matter of wielding it well. Tempering it so they really get the job done, not running over people, not leaving people in their wake. All these types have a tempering to do and avenues of growth. So yes — you mentioned Type Nine. Their reflection is God's harmony, peace, and oneness.

Type Nines see the connection of all human beings — that underneath all our differences, there is a common thread of our humanity. They're great mediators because they see the positions of differing opinions as each valuable to the whole. They want to find that harmony in our common thread and help people appreciate that in one another — to point out that each perspective is valid.

And that leads to peace — their authentic self, and their role as Peacemakers. Which is a lot of work. Getting to peace takes real effort. Peacekeeping, on the other hand, is like: whatever, I'll just stay in the background, not use my power or my influence or my voice. I'll just let everybody else have a stronger voice — because they want to keep that connection and they feel like they'll be disconnected, separated from the whole, if they cause conflict. Their heart of hearts is to experience that merging, that symbiosis, that harmony with other people, the oneness that God created. Jesus talks about this: "that they all would be one, just as you and I are one." Underneath it all there is oneness, and Nines want to bring that about — within themselves, in relationships, and in the world. They're particularly gifted in relationships and helping people navigate the conflicts that naturally arise.

Tyler Zach (34:48)

I want Nines to understand how big of a deal they are. Especially since 2020, with so much divisiveness in our culture — to understand that not everybody thinks like a Nine. Not everybody can see all these differing perspectives, understand why people are coming from different angles, value that, and then mediate and bring things together so we can actually get along and experience the peace that God has wired us to experience. Now is the time — if there's ever a time — now is the time for Nines to step up and be peacemakers.

Marilyn (35:35)

I heard something on a podcast — I think it was with Russ Hudson — where he was talking about the types and said about Nines: "We need you to engage. We need you to step up. You have so much that the world needs. Don't discount yourself." And I was like, okay. It gave me a lot of courage — an affirmation that I do have a place, that Nines have a critical place in the whole, which is exactly where they want to be.

Tyler Zach (36:15)

And Jesus — who is the perfect image of God on earth, as Hebrews says, the exact imprint of his nature — we see that Jesus stood up for himself. Sometimes, to really adequately reflect the image of God, you need to rock the boat, stand up for yourself — and not just be a follower, but a leader. That's what it means to fully live out the imago Dei. It sounds counterintuitive and not humble, but it means taking the position, taking up the space that God set aside for you here on earth.

Marilyn (36:58)

Yeah. It's not easy to do. Other people think, well, what's so hard about that? And Nines are like, okay, I have to find my place. And it's courageous to step into that space.

Tyler Zach (37:12)

I love the work that you've done, Marilyn. It really hits home. It adds something that's not available in other popular Enneagram resources. So thank you for doing this work for those who are Christians seeking to learn the Enneagram through a gospel lens. It's an honor just to get some time with you.

Marilyn (37:34)

Well, thank you for the work you're doing too — providing resources for each of the types and how they can be on this journey of transformation. And for the good questions you ask.

Tyler Zach (37:53)

If this episode encouraged you, be sure to follow the show, leave a five-star rating, and write a review. It really helps more people discover the podcast.

Now before you go, take a moment to reflect: What were you encouraged by as Marilyn talked about how your type reflects the image of God?

Remember — the Enneagram is not only useful in showing you your blind spots, but also your divine spots. Right now, without any effort, you radiate the imago Dei. So don't hide your light today. Let it shine.