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Summary

In today’s conversation, Lindsey Lewis and I explore how each Enneagram type uniquely relates to God—both at its healthiest and where it can quietly drift off course. This episode will reveal how your type’s strengths can either deepen your connection with God or subtly distort it.

Get the Notes

📑 FREE PDF Download: Spiritual Growth Series Podcast Notes
Get the bullet-point notes for all 6 episodes—key insights, no fluff, easy to revisit.

👉🏼 Download here: https://witty-atom-266.myflodesk.com/zd4dme4pgf 

Spiritual Growth Series

🎙️ Episodes in the Spiritual Growth Series

• Spiritual Identity, Idealized Self, and Avoidance Patterns | Lisa Vischer (Ep. 7)
• Spiritual Practices for Each Enneagram Type | Pastor A.J. Sherrill (Ep. 8)
• How Each Enneagram Type Relates to God | Lindsey Lewis (Ep. 9)
• Image of God in Each Enneagram Type | Marilyn Vancil (Ep. 10)
• What Every Type Wants & What They Settle For | Jesse Eubanks (Ep. 11)
• Enneagram Vices and Virtues | Hunter Mobley (Ep. 12)

The Guest

👉🏼 Follow Lindsey Lewis

https://relatebetter.com/ 

40-Day Enneagram Devotional

📚 Get a personalized devotional for your Enneagram type:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08VGPJTX6

Read The Transcript

Tyler Zach (00:20)

Welcome to Typish, an Enneagram podcast where we explore how your personality shows up in all of life. I'm your host Tyler Zach, and in each episode I connect you with leading experts on how your personality impacts your relationships, mental health, spirituality, and everything in between.

The Typish summits I host include speakers and attendees from all kinds of faith traditions and backgrounds. But because I started my Enneagram journey as a pastor and wrote a 40-day devotional for every Enneagram type, I have a large Christian audience — and the topic of spiritual growth is the number one request I get. So I decided to open up the vault and share six conversations from my Gospel for Enneagram summits back in 2023 as a special six-week podcast series — which we're right in the middle of right now.

If you'd like the bullet point notes for all six episodes, you can grab them right now by clicking the link in the show notes and downloading the PDF as a free gift.

Today my guest is Lindsey Lewis, who brings extensive theological training, years of experience as an international missionary, and multiple Enneagram coaching certifications. She also co-hosted the popular podcast The EnneaCast with Jesse Eubanks — so after this episode, be sure to head over there and binge some of their fantastic seasons. Lindsey currently serves as the Director of Relational Formation for Relate Better. If you're looking for someone to lead an Enneagram workshop for your company, church, or nonprofit, Lindsey and Jesse are a great option. You can learn more at RelateBetter.com.

In today's conversation, Lindsey and I explore how each Enneagram type relates to God. Lindsey is such a wise teacher and contagious communicator. I think you're really going to love this conversation. So without further ado, let's jump in and go around the circle.

Lindsey Lewis (02:23)

We are going to go through the types, One through Nine. But I encourage people to listen for all nine ways that we can kind of trip over ourselves when relating to God — and then all nine ways that God is true and beautiful and loving, which apply to all of us, not just the way he loves your type. So — Type One?

Type Ones — we call them the Reformers, or some know them better as the Perfectionists. They really emphasize obedience in their life and in their spiritual life. Like, if we would all just do the right thing, we would get somewhere. If you would just stop sinning, that would really make your spiritual life better. And that is true. But when we lean on obedience as the only way to relate to God, we get what we call a slanted rule of life — and that's when we're going to start tripping over ourselves.

First, what does their relationship with God look like when they have this love for obedience and it's healthy? These people are working for a higher purpose no matter what they do — whether they're lawyers or accountants — if they're walking with the Lord, everything they do has integrity. They care about things being ethical and right and fair. They're working so hard to just make their little corner of the universe more like Eden than not. And it's really beautiful.

They're also looking to God as their strength in that obedience. They know their limits, they know their need for rest, and they can tap into their desires — that little bit of Seven — they can relax, they can have fun. They don't get so hyper-focused that every second of life must be accounted for in a ledger.

But as we all do, there are levels of health to unhealth. When they hit the more unhealthy side, that critical voice starts to come out — should, I ought, I have to do more for God. It becomes more self-motivated: I must do more to please God. Life becomes a rat race — even a spiritual rat race — and they're exhausted and fatigued but feel like they have to pull themselves up by the bootstraps again and again. They forget what they originally loved, which is God and his goodness. Their gaze gets really narrow. And then they're hard on other people: why aren't you doing what you should be doing? Why are you going on vacation? They get really rigid and strict, and it can bleed out into anger — that hidden resentment that ones carry, resentment that they can't rest because there's so much brokenness and so much to do and no one else is doing enough. Just that seething under the surface, instead of working from joy or love or an easy burden.

Tyler Zach (06:01)

So how does that transfer to what Ones need to be thinking about in terms of relating to God?

Lindsey Lewis (06:09)

Right. We want to ask: what's shifted in our view of God? Who are we seeing God as that's leading us astray? The way you act out your relationship with God on earth is going to be a direct result of how you're viewing the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Their false view of God is that he's just a judge. He's the angry dad who's like, "Come on, get it together. You could do better." I think it's Curt Thompson who talks about making a 90 on a test and his dad's response being, "Where are the other 10 points?" You got a good grade, but it wasn't enough. And that's how Ones start to think of God — that he's just up there tapping his foot, impatient, frustrated. They project their own frustration onto God, that he's frustrated and angry with them.

I think this is exactly where the Pharisees were in the New Testament. I mean, some of them were evil — but I really think most of them started out as eager young guys who were taken in by a rabbi and were like, "Yes, teach me the laws, teach me the way, I want to run after God." But then they got so narrow-minded that when God was literally standing in front of them, it felt really unsafe — because it was all freedom and pleasure and love. They had lost their way. I have compassion for the Pharisees in the same way I have compassion for Ones — they're just living under a false view of what God really wants from them.

Like the whole idea in James: "Faith without works is dead." And all the Ones are like, amen, we got that. But the faith and the grace and the mercy is a little harder to grasp, harder to get your hands around. So I think the true view of God that can speak especially to Ones is that God is perfect — he is complete, he is whole — and also that he is writing a story that has a perfect ending, a perfect completed work. We already know the already-not-yet victory we have in Christ. And because we have victory in Christ, we can rest.

The Psalms and other places talk about how he knows our weaknesses, he knows how frail we are. He literally made us to need eight hours of sleep every single day. He knows exactly how we're wired, and his expectations are not more than that. Jesus said, "Come to me — my burden is easy. I'm trying to give you something lighter than what you already carry." So for Ones to go on that journey of just asking God, what does that actually look like for me to have an easy burden? It's going to be a journey. That's not something you can decide to do today. I can testify that I'm still working on it.

Tyler Zach (09:56)

Amen. Well, let's keep moving.

Lindsey Lewis (09:59)

Okay, Twos. They have an emphasis on service. They love meeting people's needs, that helper mentality — I know that I'm bringing value because I'm serving, I'm filling a gap. In their relationship with God when they're healthy, they're living a life of service and sacrificial love while also acknowledging their own neediness and their own limits. They're able to give, give, give — but from a place of fulfillment and abundance that already lives within themselves.

You can be sacrificial and still take a nap. Those are not mutually exclusive. You can work at a homeless shelter or serve at your church and still take a personal retreat on Saturdays or learn how to paint — something that fills your well so it's always an overflow, serving out of joy and not out of a need to be needed or resentment.

When they're going to an unhealthy place, they're still serving — but they're trying to earn favor with God and with other people. They're coming from a place of lack: I don't feel loved, so maybe if I do more, I'll feel loved by God and by my community. What if I leave and no one ever thinks of me? Instead of fullness pouring out, they're ahead of themselves and they're going to run out of steam. That leads to all that resentment and anger. I know several Twos who, before they've done their work, have developed physical ailments because they pushed themselves too far in service of others, really looking for love.

I was at a spiritual retreat recently and they painted this image of us as this beautifully woven tapestry — intricate and beautiful. And I just see the enemy doing that with Twos: is this thread loose? Is this one loose? Just trying to pull them apart. And they don't see how beautifully and intricately they're woven together. If they can't do all that serving, the enemy says: you're not really loved, you're not really worth anything. And it does start to unravel the edges.

Their false view is that God is a taskmaster who has signed them up for VBS and pastor's wife duties and all these things — that he's running them ragged. So in the same way as with Ones, we want to say: actually, he's a God of easy burdens. It's not his desire for you to burn out. If you are burning out, somewhere in there are things that God doesn't need you to do. They don't see a God of unconditional love — they see a God of conditional love. When you help enough, when you do enough, when you give enough, I love you. But if you pull back, I might not love you. I might forget you altogether.

The true view of God is unconditional love — and also that he has given us the Holy Spirit as the perfect helper. Twos can work alongside the Holy Spirit. But they don't have to be the Holy Spirit. God has given us a helper that is all-sufficient and all-benevolent. The Two can just listen to the Holy Spirit: where am I working with you, and what am I leaving up to you because I don't have capacity for that? God's got it. He's got the perfect Holy Spirit, and he loves you, and he has a place for you. He's not going to forget you. It's not going to be like you stop trying and he says, "Well, I don't actually need your help." No — he put you on this earth with your gifts. You're still going to be a helper.

Tyler Zach (14:58)

Amen, that's so good. Okay, I went to the best number.

Lindsey Lewis (15:05)

These are our Achievers. They're going to emphasize producing and success. We can go to Tyler's website and see all that he's producing — you're like the king of producing, in a good, healthy way, of course.

Tyler Zach (15:19)

Yeah, it's so funny because I feel like I'm being unproductive. But Ones probably feel like they're flawed and not perfect, even though they're the most put-together. It's funny how that works.

Lindsey Lewis (15:34)

Yeah, that's like your litmus test for whether this is your core number — you're doing a lot and you feel like you're not doing anything at all. All right. When Threes are healthy in their relationship with God — and Tyler, I'm not joking, I do see a lot of these things in you, and in Jesse too, who's come out as a Three — they are just so hardworking and vision-casting. They're using any glory that could come their way and quickly deflecting it to Christ. Like, I'm going to use all this energy I have and use it all, and any glory that comes my way I'm just sending straight to Christ.

Tyler Zach (16:18)

I say Threes are known for photobombing Jesus. Like, "Hey, Jesus is doing this — but we want some credit too."

Lindsey Lewis (16:24)

Oh my gosh, I need to write that down. That's really good. Yes — and they're also drawing people to God, because Threes can have this magnetism. People are just drawn to them. They're good with words. So when they're doing that well in their relationship with God, they're using all those giftings to help people know who God is and that God loves them and wants relationship with them.

When it's unhealthy — and Ones, Twos, and Threes are a bit like watercolors bleeding into each other — when they're unhealthy, it's like: I gotta do more, I gotta produce more, I gotta be shinier for Jesus. I need the right glasses and the right clothes and I need to be in front of a lot of people, or I'm not doing enough for the kingdom. And heaven forbid if I do something really bad publicly — then I've destroyed Jesus. But like you said, Jesus is in the foreground. We can mar the name of Christ on earth, but we don't change who Jesus is — his glory and power are unchanging, no matter what the Three is doing.

And Threes can have really high expectations of both themselves and of God: I'm going to do this for you, so you're going to build my platform. I've heard that a lot in Christian circles — "God is building my platform." As if that's a holy thing because you're not building it yourself. But maybe there's no platform. Maybe you can just stand on the ground like everybody else. They just get really busy and can lose focus on what they were in it for in the beginning.

Let's talk about their view of God. They're looking at God as having high expectations — including an expectation against laziness, as if rest is just laziness. That when they're resting, God is like, "What are you doing? You're on the clock. You've got a lot to do."

The true view of God is that God is the glorious one. He is going to fulfill his purposes. He has accomplished the work — "It is finished." We are co-heirs and coworkers, but we are definitely the subordinate. We're the ones learning, in process, human, limited — psychologically, physically, in every way. And God isn't scared or upset by any of that. He delights in the Three.

The main thing for the Three to know about God is that — as you mentioned with your wife — he sees behind any mask we've created. He really knows the internal life, and he loves you because of it. Not in spite of it, but because of it. That's what he cherishes: not the manufactured image, but the essence of who you are. And when we can believe even a mustard seed of that, Threes can start doing the work of looking for their own essence — because some of us have lost touch with it altogether. My identity isn't worship pastor or lead pastor or missionary or any of the things that make us as Christians feel like "now I'm something." God says no — those are not the things I love you for.

And so for us to do that inner work of saying, who I am in Christ is much deeper than any title or role. God is never fooled, and he is making us into his image from one degree of glory to another. Threes can especially appreciate that: every single day, he is moving you from one degree of glory to another into his likeness. So you can rest easy. There's glory to be had, and God is just freely giving it to you day by day.

Tyler Zach (21:51)

I love that.

Lindsey Lewis (21:53)

For Fours — when they're healthy, they are the Psalms. If you read the Psalms, there are the highest highs, the lowest lows, there is anger ("smash out the teeth of the wicked"), there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. And there's also this remembrance piece — constantly going back and telling a story, which is very artistic, like songs and works of art.

When I think of a Four in a healthy relationship with God, that's what I see: they're riding all the waves. They're not denying any experience God has for them. But they also know that all of those experiences are anchored in their Creator — who made them wonderfully. So they can ride the lows and know, "This is not who I am. This is a low moment, and I'm going to cry out to the Lord in my low." And then they go to the high and they know — unlike some Threes — I am not the high. I am just experiencing a high, and I give glory to God for that. Their use of emotion to go through life with Christ — that really encompasses the healthy Four.

Tyler Zach (23:24)

That's how I know I'm a Three — the Psalms were always my least favorite book of the Bible. Too much, too many feelings. I used to skip that in my Bible reading plan. And then I hit a low and only read Psalms for a whole year after going through some marriage struggles. David is a good example of pouring your heart out, being honest and authentic, and then coming back and saying, "But I will trust in you" — moving forward, not letting himself get so disillusioned that he can't step back into the world. He still got stuff done, moved the ball forward. I think he's a great picture of a healthy Four.

Lindsey Lewis (24:13)

Yeah — he was still the king. He was still in battle and stuff, but he also lamented. So yes.

When they're unhealthy, they do attach too much to their emotions — to the lows and to the highs — at the expense of other spiritual disciplines that would bring equanimity into their life. They over-identify with melancholy. That might be because they have Sevens in their life who are refusing to look at the dark side, so the Four plants a flag there: "I will stake my claim on the dark side. It deserves a voice." Or they just over-identify with their emotions, and it skews their relationship with God: I'm near to God, I'm far from God. I'm near to God, I'm far from God. Instead of: life is rocky, but God is the same.

And I think a lot of us do that — it's not just Fours. We think that when we feel God's presence, we're close to God, and when we don't feel it, God is far. But God isn't moving. God isn't changing his position toward us. It's our human way of understanding him. We need to be able to say: even when I don't feel it, God is just as near as he was in the most amazing moment of your life. God is the same. We're the ones changing.

That goes into their false view of God: that he actually made me a little bit wrong — like he took his eye off the conveyor belt when I was going through. And that creates a lot of confusion in their relationship with God: why did you make me this way? Why am I not like that person at the staff meeting who has so much energy? Of course they're not seeing that what they're observing might be someone else's fatal flaw on display. They're just thinking, I don't have that. And they're looking to God saying, you made me — so why all the defects?

And then like you said, they can see God as withholding and distant because they've pulled themselves away from the Lord or from community. And when you're in a cave long enough, you don't remember who put who in the cave. You're just there.

But Fours, maybe more than anyone, can read Psalm 139 and be challenged to really believe it — that God was so intentional when he made you. If we didn't have Fours in the world, we would have a huge lack: in creativity, in authenticity, in having people who will sit with us in grief, who call Threes to realness, who are not enamored with all the shiny things. God made Fours to be that anchor in the world, and that's exactly what he wants them to be.

And the true view is also that God is perfectly order and perfectly beauty. Fours can live into both of those things — an ordinary life with grocery shopping and laundry and staff meetings and wiping children's faces, all the ordinary structure of life. And also always worshipping God for all his beauty. He literally created us to enjoy the fact that blue and green go together. The sky happens to be blue, and the trees and grass are green. It could be black and white, but it's not. And Fours bring that awareness to people — the beauty of God's glory in his creation.

Tyler Zach (29:26)

All right — Fives.

Lindsey Lewis (29:27)

These are our Investigators. They really emphasize knowledge — they love understanding how things work, the why and the how, going deeper and then deeper past deeper, down those rabbit trails. When they're healthy in their relationship with God, they're using knowledge to fan the flame of love and service and right action toward the Lord. They're saying, wow, God has made the universe so intricately and amazingly — I want to study that for hours on end, and it's always stirring my heart in worship, propelling me to right action within the community of God.

They can go deep into theology or astrophysics or whatever it is, and it's always stirring their hearts: God is so amazing. He doesn't get tired. You know, all the planets are spinning this way, going around the sun, they have moons — talk about spinning plates. And Fives want to understand how all that works. So yeah, they're curious, and they can actually be great at contemplative practices because sitting in stillness and quiet curiosity isn't scary for them. They don't always have to speak. They can be in a group of people just listening, listening, listening — really discovering deeper truths. And that groundedness can actually help other believers come closer in their relationship with God.

The downside is when it becomes knowledge for knowledge's sake, no longer stirring them toward God — just becoming a rat race of more, more, have to have more. That isolates them from communion with God and community with others, because they'd rather be buried in a book than in the horizontal and vertical relationships God actually created them for. Just like the One's doing — when it comes from overflow, it's beautiful. When digging deeper and deeper is an overflow of your love for God, it's beautiful — until it's no longer that, and it becomes just a desire for more. And then judging others when they don't have that knowledge: I don't have to listen to you because I know so many things. Becoming complacent in other spiritual avenues because knowledge is the only thing of value.

I think the true view of God for Fives is that he is all-knowing — and as wonderful and spectacular as we could ever imagine. He created Pythagoras' theorem. He can do all the math, all the science. He created all the galaxies and the orbits and gravity and all the things. And he delights in our delight. When we're delighting in his creation, when we're delighting in those little nuggets of wisdom we can discover here on earth, he actually delights in that. And just like with all the other types — you're wonderfully made, and God knows your limits. It might feel like he's stretching your relational or social capacity. But he knows you're dust, and he knows exactly how you tick. He wants to work with who you are — to help your desires come into fruition, but in relationship with him. Always flowing from that outpouring of love and relationship we're getting with God.

Tyler Zach (33:17)

I love Fives and just the depth and knowledge they bring — especially when you go into studying the Bible. Fives help you understand who God is. There are these amazing books — The Knowledge of the Holy and others — where just grasping more of God is so worshipful.

Lindsey Lewis (33:43)

Yeah, I think of the Bible Project — there's a lot of Five energy over there, and you listen to their stuff and you're just like, how amazing is God. That's the healthy thing we're looking for. And then you go to a seminary campus where people are buried in their books and their families are floundering and it's like — that's not it. That can be the lure of knowledge.

I think that comes out with their view of God — they can view God as distant and withholding and not relational, or they think they're going to figure him out with facts rather than a personal relationship. Or they might see God as overbearing: he expects so much of me, he doesn't know how low-energy I am, he doesn't know my limits. So I'm just going to put up a boundary between me and God because I can't go out and meet all those people's needs.

But the true view — as we've said — is that he is all-knowing, and he delights in our delight. He knows your limits. He knows you're dust. He knows exactly how you tick. And he wants to work with who you are to bring your desires into fruition in relationship with him.

Tyler Zach (36:28)

Well, are you ready to move on to Type Six?

Lindsey Lewis (36:31)

Yes. The Six is the Loyalist, and they really emphasize faithfulness. My co-host Jesse always says these are the covenant people — they want to make a promise and keep a promise, and they want you to make a promise and keep yours too. That's great when they're healthy, because God is a covenant God. He says he is the one who fulfills the covenant — when we can't, he just takes care of it. He keeps remaking these Old Testament covenants with his people, and then finally just says, I'm going to take care of their sin for them. I'll do the whole thing. And it's beautiful.

When Sixes are in healthy communion with God — they are all in with a trustworthy leader. When they have trust with God, they're like, put me in. They can serve like a Two, they can care about doing what's right like a One, they want to be for God's people. In a church setting, they want to be for that church and stick it out through the messy stuff — because they feel safe in who God made them to be and who God is.

The unhealthy stuff comes out when they move from abounding in faith to abounding in doubt — when they don't understand why things have played out the way they have, which we all go through. All of a sudden, maybe God isn't exactly who we thought he was, based on our circumstances. And so they either pull back or lash out. That could mean within the church — "I'm not going to do this anymore, I'm not going to go to church with these untrustworthy people." Or in their personal relationship with God: "I don't trust that he is keeping covenant with me anymore."

And in our current culture with megachurches and famous Christian leaders, it can be hard for all of us, but especially Sixes — if we're broken by a leader we thought was faithful, someone who taught us so many true and good things about the gospel, and then they turn out to be a raging narcissist or do something really awful — we can doubt God in the way we doubt them. Like they turned the tables on us and now I'm not sure about my relationship with God, even though that person taught me the gospel and that's a beautiful thing, and also I completely reject what they're up to right now. It's really tricky in the Christian world.

As far as their view of God — they can swing on that same pendulum: either seeing God as an authoritarian, untrustworthy figure, or going all in with God as the loving, kind, good leader. But the true view is that he is the loyal God, the covenant keeper. He made the covenant, he fulfilled the covenant, and we can trust that he is always working out his plan to completion. He's not going to leave a sheep behind.

I think we can take so much comfort in who Jesus was when he was on earth — he did not leave people behind. He wasn't too busy. He wasn't full of himself. I think of the woman who had been sick for 12 years — he's on his way to keep a little girl from dying, and when the woman touches him, he could have just kept going, knowing she was healed. But he stops. He's going to let the little girl die — because he knows he can raise her — just to meet this person who had been unclean and completely outcast for 12 years. Jesus was gentle and lowly, even though he was King of the universe. And I think Sixes can take a lot of comfort in meditating on that, especially when they're feeling distrustful.

Tyler Zach (41:48)

All right — Sevens.

Lindsey Lewis (41:49)

The Enthusiasts. They're going to really emphasize joy and celebrating. And we really need that — we have a lot to celebrate. In their relationship with God, they have this faith like a child. They hear the gospel and they're like, "Let's tell everybody! Let's throw a party! Let's throw a block party and shout for joy!" They have so much of that childlike quality. And since they're in the head triad, a lot of times that comes out in this deep curiosity — wanting to know more, not quite like a Five, more of a playful knowing, but they're just so interested. There's so much to know and do and experience. Sevens bring a lot to the table — they help us not get so stuck in theology or church politics or all the suffering and brokenness of the world. They bring this reminder: but remember, it's called good news. They love that aspect of it.

The unhealthy side is when they accidentally build their entire personal theology on only the positive aspects of life and faith. And there are a lot of reasons why that's tricky. One is: people are suffering, and you have to be able to engage with suffering to actually meet people where they are. And two: you're going to suffer. So if you hit midlife and some of those big things that can go wrong do go wrong, where is your faith? If all you've ever based it on is the joy of the Lord, and then you're clinically depressed — what do you do? If they're avoiding lament, they're missing part of the full picture of who God is and how he's organized life to be. We need the joy, we need to be able to live in ordinary time, and we need to be able to lament. Anytime we over-focus on one, we're missing the complete picture.

Tyler Zach (44:27)

How does that affect their view of God? Do they view God as sort of the easygoing parent who just lets them do whatever they want and have as much fun as they want?

Lindsey Lewis (44:39)

I think they tend to have two sides. One is that God is just fun — almost like Santa Claus, he's here for the party. And maybe he needs them to jazz things up a little bit. Like they're going to give Jesus a glow-up because he could be a little stodgy and boring, so they're going to liven things up.

But then when life gets hard, they can see God as a little bit stingy and withholding: why would he withhold every good thing from me today? He wants to fulfill my desires — so why isn't he fulfilling them today? And I think we see that in a lot of our hearts, not just Sevens. Scripture says one thing, but our experience of it has a gap — a mystery we don't always understand. So Sevens can see God as withholding and a little distant, and they feel like they have to conjure up feeling and fun and liveliness. Because if they stopped moving, the stillness and the emptiness would be deafening.

Tyler Zach (45:58)

They just need to remember that they can find greater joy by staying put and being faithful wherever they're at — that they can experience greater joy by going through the pain rather than around it. Just like Jesus said — he endured the cross for the joy set before him. There's greater joy on the other side of the pain.

Lindsey Lewis (46:25)

Yes.

Tyler Zach (46:28)

Shall we move on to Eights?

Lindsey Lewis (46:30)

Let's do it. The Eights — they really emphasize victory. And when I tried to unpack that word, I landed on this: victory is what happens when you're successful with control and power. Which we know Eights love. When you manage your armies well, you have a victory. So they're controlling outcomes, wanting everything to be victorious in the end — while not being controlled in the process.

Tyler Zach (47:13)

Christus Victor — the doctrine of Christ's victory over Satan, sin, and death — is kind of a doctrine for Eights. Seeing the victorious Christ really resonates with them.

Lindsey Lewis (47:25)

Yes — the horse, the sword, the whole thing in Revelation. I love it. When I picture a healthy Eight in their relationship with God, one word just rises up like a banner: zeal. They are just zealous for the Lord. They have so much energy. They really care about the things God cares about — justice, lifting up the needy — they believe in the power of Christ. They're calling people up, binding up wounds, saying, "Stand up, come on, keep going." These really zealous leaders.

I picture David again — because Fours and Eights can have a lot in common. We've got Psalmist David, which is more the Four. But King David — I really see Eight in there. He's always zealous for the Lord, doing whatever the Lord asks him to do, going into incredible battles and then coming back and dancing and living in the full glory of God's power. That's what a really healthy Eight looks like in their relationship with God.

Tyler Zach (48:53)

My character for Eights in the Old Testament is Deborah — how she challenged Barak when he wasn't listening to the Lord about taking the army out to fight. And especially since she's a female, I love using her as such a powerful example.

Lindsey Lewis (48:57)

Yes! I wish we had more of her. That's really good. A key piece we have to mention for their relationship with God is that even when they're zealous and leading in a healthy way, that zeal has to be anchored in an understanding of their own need for forgiveness and mercy. Because I think we see the pendulum swing to the unhealthy side when it becomes power for power's sake, victory for their own glory.

Jesus was gentle and lowly, even though he was powerful. He did make a whip and drive people from the temple — because that was his Father's house and those people were taking advantage of the poor, the needy, the devout who couldn't even make a sacrifice because of the money changers. I think Eights have that healthy zeal. But then when we start whipping people just because they disagree with us — that isn't Jesus. That wasn't a multi-purpose whip that he carried with him the rest of his journey.

And Eights also have so much energy and life that they can justify leaving people behind: if you can keep up my pace, great. If you fall behind, that's on you. And the Twos and the Fours and the Sixes, the tenderhearted types — they're just not made that way. My sister is an Eight and she's like that. She's like, "Why aren't you keeping up?" And I'm like, I just have a different stride than you. I'll never have as much energy as she does. Ever.

So I think for Eights to slow down and ask: what are God's priorities? What does he care about more than power? People. If we're leaving people behind, we need to reevaluate what's driving us — because it's probably no longer the Holy Spirit. The pendulum for Eights is this amazing zeal for the Lord and using all that God-given energy for him — and then getting going so fast that they forgot they're supposed to be running with Jesus, and being like Jesus in their running.

Their false view can be that even God is too slow — so they just take matters into their own hands and go. But the true view of God is that he is all-powerful and he is also zealous. We gave the example of Jesus clearing the temple — he has this righteous anger he is not afraid of. That can be part of the Eight's story. But he's also calling them to their softer side: that wounded child inside of you, who had to grow up and put on this armor — I am actually safe for that person. The invitation is to be still, and not be afraid of what will happen in the stillness. Not afraid of what happens when you aren't the initiator of action. Maybe God has something extra special for you there — that in that spiritual discipline, he will cultivate a newness of life within you that will then empower you for your next big initiative. We all need that — which is why Eights go to Five in stress, and Threes go to Nine. We all need times of pulling back, slowing down, and refocusing: what is this all for, and how can I be more like him?

Tyler Zach (53:38)

All right — anything more about the Eight, or are you ready for Nines?

Lindsey Lewis (53:42)

I'm ready for Nines. The Nines are the Peacemakers, and what they emphasize is — shockingly — peace. I think the thing Nines are longing for, and that they kind of embody, is this garden mentality. They are looking for the peace of the garden. And the beautiful thing is that Jesus says he is the Prince of Peace — because of him, we have peace with God. And we know in the end there will be a new heaven and a new earth, that he is making all things new. I think that's what Nines are embodying in all this peacefulness — and also the reconciliation that God brings.

Nines exhibit that. They have such a love for all sides to be seen and heard — sometimes at the cost of seeing and hearing themselves. When they're healthy, they're awake to that. They're awake to the presence of God and Christ, and that longing for the already-not-yet tension to be fulfilled — and they're fueled by Jesus's life and lifestyle to move toward right action. They're able to take steps in their own lives to serve God in their own capacities, bringing reconciliation and peace within the community of God.

The challenge is that Nines have a tendency to fall asleep — even to themselves. They're sleepwalking through their lives and not taking that right action.

Tyler Zach (55:30)

They need more zeal. They need some of Eight's zeal. Revelation literally commands them to be zealous.

Lindsey Lewis (55:37)

Yeah, they need to get that tattooed on their arm. And they can fall into narcotizing — a fake peace, the peace I get when I watch a show or eat some candy or play a video game. Numbing myself so I don't feel how hard this life is, so I don't feel the brokenness and the tension that exists. But there's an invitation in the brokenness. Our oneness with Christ often comes from acknowledging: I'm broken, I can't do this anymore. And Nines may be resisting that in an unhealthy way in their relationship with God.

They can also not show up because they just don't think they matter. They've lost their own voice and trust that somebody else will say what needs to be said. Especially surrounded by Eights and Ones on each side — they're like, let the Eight and the One speak. They've got lots of things to say. Who needs my voice? I'll just lay low. I won't cause trouble. But God doesn't need me in his plan — that's the unhealthy thinking.

They can also, like a Five, believe that God is going to have more demands than they can give. And Nines are very stubborn — so they kind of shut down and dig in their heels: that's too much, I can't do all that. I'm going to stick to this really easy path because I don't trust myself, and I don't trust you to equip me to do the harder task I can see.

But the true view is that Nines are such a beautiful picture of Christ himself — the true mediator. That compassion. Jesus called disciples who were all incredibly different, and he was able to hold all of that. He is this wholeness and fullness. Nines aren't perfect like Jesus, but they do hold so many things together in a similar way that the actual person of Jesus on earth also did. Their desire for peace comes from Jesus, the Peacemaker, the Reconciler — and those things are beautiful.

But they can also trust that God is the God who can calm the storm. Your life may feel like the storm, but God is bigger than the storm. He's bigger than the overwhelm, bigger than the to-do list. All it takes is a word from Jesus — "Peace, be still." And the Nines can rest in that. Not just "I feel at ease right now," but a deeper peace: I am working with the one who calms the storm. I can weather the storm knowing that I know the author of the calm.

Tyler Zach (59:19)

Thank you so much for joining me and Lindsey to learn the Enneagram through a gospel lens so you can transform your life and your relationships. Go in peace.

Tyler Zach (59:34)

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Now before you go, take a moment to reflect on this question: How do you relate to God? And what from today's conversation might invite you to see God differently?

Remember the words of A.W. Tozer: "What comes into our minds when we think about God is the most important thing about us."