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Summary

In this conversation, Lisa Vischer explains how the Enneagram helps us understand identity, ego, and spiritual growth. We walk around the Enneagram circle and explore how each type forms an idealized self-image, who we think we must be in order to be loved, and the avoidance patterns we use to protect that image.

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📑 FREE PDF Download: Spiritual Growth Series Podcast Notes
Get the bullet-point notes for all 6 episodes—key insights, no fluff, easy to revisit.

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Spiritual Growth Series

🎙️ Episodes in the Spiritual Growth Series

• Spiritual Identity, Idealized Self, and Avoidance Patterns | Lisa Vischer (Ep. 7)
• Spiritual Practices for Each Enneagram Type | Pastor A.J. Sherrill (Ep. 8)
• How Each Enneagram Type Relates to God | Lindsey Lewis (Ep. 9)
• Image of God in Each Enneagram Type | Marilyn Vancil (Ep. 10)
• What Every Type Wants & What They Settle For | Jesse Eubanks (Ep. 11)
• Enneagram Vices and Virtues | Hunter Mobley (Ep. 12)

The Guest

👉🏼 Follow Lisa Vischer

https://www.lisavischer.com/

40-Day Enneagram Devotional

📚 Get a personalized devotional for your Enneagram type:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08VGPJTX6

Read The Transcript

Tyler Zach (00:21)

Welcome to Typish, an Enneagram podcast where we explore how your personality shows up in all of life. I'm your host Tyler Zach. In each episode, I connect you with leading experts on how your personality impacts your relationships, mental health, spirituality, and everything in between.

The Typish summits I host include speakers and attendees from all kinds of faith traditions and backgrounds. But because I started my Enneagram journey as a pastor and wrote a 40-day devotional for every Enneagram type, I have a large Christian audience — and the topic of spiritual growth is the number one request I get. So for the next six weeks, I'm digging into the vault and sharing six conversations from my Gospel for Enneagram summits back in 2023. These talks have never been released publicly until now.

If you'd like the bullet point notes for all six episodes in advance, you can grab them right now by clicking the link in the show notes and downloading the free PDF as a gift.

Today's guest is my friend Lisa Vischer, who has become one of my favorite Enneagram teachers to listen to. If you grew up watching VeggieTales, you've actually heard Lisa before — she was the voice of Junior Asparagus. Beyond voice acting, Lisa is also a certified Enneagram coach who's been studying and teaching the Enneagram for more than 25 years. She's really good at typing interviews if you want to discover your type, and she also does one-on-one coaching and couples coaching. You can find her at lisavischer.com — I'll put the link below.

In this conversation, Lisa explains how the Enneagram helps us understand identity, ego, and spiritual growth. We walk around the Enneagram circle and explore how each type forms an idealized self-image — who we think we must be in order to be loved — and the avoidance patterns we use to protect that image. There's some really insightful psychology in this episode, along with a beautiful reminder of the deeper spiritual good news available to us all. Let's jump in.

Lisa Vischer (02:36)

I actually encountered both the Enneagram and Christian spiritual formation at the same time — neither of which were well known at the time. This was almost 30 years ago, in my mid-twenties. And as you know, Tyler, spiritual formation and the Enneagram is a very catalytic combo. It's kind of par for the course today, thank goodness — but at the time, it just shook my world.

What happened was my mom, who was in Minnesota, attended an Enneagram workshop in her area about 25 years ago. Knowing how interested I am in psychology, she passed along to me and said, "I went to this amazing thing. You need to check it out." I was very intrigued. So I took a test — there weren't that many to choose from at that point. I liked the results. I liked being an Eight, which I now know should have been a clue — I probably wasn't an Eight.

But then I started reading Russ Hudson and Don Riso's book, Personality Types, which is pretty in-depth. Each type chapter started with a cartoon character on the front page. And when I got to Type Three, the floor dropped out within me — because the cartoon is this walking person holding several different masks out in front of their face, and the face behind the masks was blank.

Tyler Zach (04:23)

Hmm.

Lisa Vischer (04:24)

Internally I just collapsed. I told my husband that I felt like I had spent years building myself — brick by brick, painstakingly — and it all just came tumbling down. I had no idea who I was, what I liked, or what I should order off the menu. Just kind of a blank face. It was a really panicked sort of experience.

And my husband Phil — who many people know, he's a Five — he calms me all the time with little nuggets of wisdom. He said to me, "I think you're going to look very much the same on the outside, but I think you're going to be completely different on the inside."

Tyler Zach (05:29)

Wow.

Lisa Vischer (05:30)

And it calmed that little anxiety spiral I was having. I was able to just breathe and relax and say, okay, I need to learn about Three and what just happened to me and what this is all about. So I started reading all about Three, and shortly thereafter I took a class at Wheaton College on spiritual formation, which was also life-changing.

I began to hold spiritual formation and the Enneagram together since then — about 25 years ago — and I haven't looked back since. And now I feel like I've got all of my friends and many people in good company. There are a lot of people now holding those two things together, which I'm so glad about.

Tyler Zach (06:21)

I think the Enneagram and making use of psychology can really, really help take us deeper. And you've done some good work. So let's talk about that — what is identity, and why does it matter?

Lisa Vischer (06:38)

Such a great question. The fundamental question that humans ask — we kind of all know this — is: who am I? And the question underneath that question is: am I loved for who I am? That's just central to our being. We were made by love, for love.

Identity sits in the heart center, which is also the center of emotional bond and the center of love. Identity, bond, love — they're all interconnected. Part of what helps us feel a sense of worthiness of being loved is knowing who we are. If I don't know who I am, I can't form a bond. And if I can't bond, I can't enter a loving relationship and receive love. So identity is the core concern of our heart.

What I like to say is that just like breathing relaxes the body, identity is what calms and relaxes the heart. The nature of our breathing — whether deep and slow or rapid and shallow — determines if our body is in a state of alarm or relaxation. I would argue the same is true for the heart: a healthy sense of identity determines if our heart is in a state of alarm or a state of relaxation. I know who I am. I know that I am loved. And I am calm.

So identity is a core emotional need that enables relational connection and bonding. That's the short answer.

Tyler Zach (08:29)

That's so good. So how is identity formed — through those early connections with our parents? Where does it come from?

Lisa Vischer (08:37)

Yep. This is well-known attachment theory — I'm not a psychologist, but I do some reading, so I'm sharing what I've learned. Interestingly, the answer to the question "who am I?" is centered in "whose am I?" — where did I come from? What is the origin or source of my existence? And how does that source feel about me?

Identity formation is critical to emotional well-being and to our capacity to bond and attach properly with other human beings. And we're not born with a sense of self — it develops and forms through our interaction with others. It starts in infancy with our attachment to our mother or primary caregiver.

Secure attachment is partly formed by eye contact. Infants can't see very well, but the clearest range of an infant's eyesight is about 10 inches — the same distance as their eyes to the mother's eyes while feeding. So the child locates himself or herself in the eyes of the mother looking back, and in those eyes can see: I am wanted, I am valued, I am loved. These mirror neurons fire to create attunement and connection that then allows the baby to develop emotionally.

The child who is loved and nurtured internalizes those experiences, ends up feeling worthy of love, and develops what they call secure attachment. The child who is neglected or abused internalizes negative experiences and has insecure attachment — and later often struggles to accept love, finds it difficult to love themselves, and has trouble receiving love from others.

So this whole idea of secure attachment and bonding is what establishes self-worth and a sense of identity — so that we can receive ourselves and then receive others with an open heart.

And I just love how this reflects spiritual reality, how it mirrors our relationship with the one who made us. If we think about whose we are — God is our ultimate source, and Jesus is our mirror reflecting back who we are as beloved.

The point is that as relationally derived beings, identity is not something we can create. It's something we find and receive — and it's found in source. The challenge for human beings is that sin separates us from source. Sin separates us from God, and that fallen state means we're entering the world with an identity vacuum — something is very fundamentally wrong.

And if identity calms and settles the heart, then a lack of identity equals emotional freak-out. When we don't know who we are, our heart kind of freaks out. One of my sayings is that emotional reactivity is the symptom of a heart that isn't sure it's truly loved.

Tyler Zach (12:33)

So good. So identity is "who am I, am I loved for who I am?" — and even exploring the question "whose am I?" — and realizing that identity is not something we can create or build. What happens when we don't believe that, but think it's something we have to go out in the world and build ourselves?

Lisa Vischer (12:55)

Yeah, well, that's what happens to all of us. We have to figure out a coping approach for the situation in which we find ourselves. So that's really asking: what is ego, and how is it formed?

I'll start with the fact that God brings order to chaos — that's part of his nature, it's within the creation story, part of creation. We're made in God's image, and we do the same, consciously and unconsciously. We're wired to create order. He's a lot better at it than we are. But neurologically, the brain operates via patterning — that's how the brain is designed to work: by creating patterns through neural pathways so that we can build habits. And habits free up our attention to do the next thing, build a new habit, and maximize our attention. The world is essentially chaos.

Psychological ego is our strategy for navigating that chaos with an orderly way of being in the world. So ego is really a construct of habits and patterns that gives us a predictable and organized response to fallen reality — which is critical, because imagine if we were reorganizing ourselves every hour of the day. What I value, how I act, what I think — just different now than it was 10 minutes ago. We actually would not be able to broker relationship at all.

So it's important to have a way of being in the world. We really need some kind of defense system that kicks in and helps us form an adaptive response — this predictable, organized way of going through the world. This is my approach. This is how I see things. This is how I think and what I value.

I would add that we need this strategy early in our lives — before we have command of language, before we understand abstract concepts. So it really does need to be part of our innate wiring that just automatically deploys and helps create order.

As somebody says — I think it's Suzanne Stabile — personality is great until it isn't. The personality is a good thing until it's not. It plays a useful role in giving us a way to organize ourselves and begin to create bond and have relationships. But then our way gets in our way eventually — both practically and spiritually.

Ego is sometimes referred to as the false self, because it's the part of us that has been modified and formed by our interaction with the world. And then we over-identify with it as who we are — that's what's behind the idea of the false self.

Tyler Zach (16:28)

So how does the ego defend itself?

Lisa Vischer (16:33)

I keep referring to it as a defensive construct, which is what it is. The short answer is that the way ego defends itself is primarily through the defenses of idealization and avoidance. Each type structure has an idealized self-image and something to be avoided at all costs to reinforce that image. That's how it defends itself.

Tyler Zach (16:54)

I'm excited to get into that. An idealized self — one way we defend ourselves is having an idealized version of who we are. And then avoidance — things we try to avoid or protect ourselves from in order to uphold that image. Okay. So what is the idealized self, and how does it relate to identity?

Lisa Vischer (17:25)

So identity is who we are. And the idealized self — which I'll use interchangeably with the word "image" — is who we aren't, but are trying to be. Self-image is essentially a psychological substitute for identity. It's how we're trying to solve the problem of identity.

Tyler Zach (17:45)

So it's kind of like using a filter on Instagram. This is the picture, the image, that I want people to see of me.

Lisa Vischer (17:49)

Right. And the problem is we end up believing that's reality. Usually with an Instagram filter, we know we've put one on. But with this idealized self-image, we don't necessarily know that we've put this filter on.

So it's like using things that differentiate us from others to construct a sense of self — this is how I see myself and how I want you to see me. Not only "this is how I am," but "this is what makes me worthy of love. This is what makes me a good person."

But as we said, we're not creating identity. What we're actually creating is image — not our true self. And from an early age, we're unconsciously creating a self-image that we become emotionally attached to. I am emotionally invested in seeing myself in this particular way, to the extent that it would bring anxiety if I act in a way that contradicts how I see myself or how I need others to see me.

Tyler Zach (19:03)

I'm already starting to think about my type and other types as you're saying that. Can we talk about each type's self-image now?

Lisa Vischer (19:08)

Yes. But let me first add a clarification — why is it called "idealized"? Because ego is fear-driven. Ego can't be love-driven. Ego is a construct, and it's driven by fear. The ego wants to pull things apart into either/or, black and white. And so when it comes to how I view myself, I'm in an extreme black-and-white world of "I am this, but I am not that." The ego ends up as a binary construct.

As Jerry Wagner talks about, we basically unconsciously banish the parts of ourselves that we can't sit with — the parts we can't allow and still feel a sense of worthiness. So I am this, but I am not that. And when we banish the "not that" out of our awareness, we tend to see it everywhere in everyone else. That's what triggers us. We walk around the world and we see the "not that" in other people, and it triggers us: "That's not how you're supposed to be."

Tyler Zach (20:46)

So Type Threes see lazy people everywhere. Type Fives see all the incompetence.

Lisa Vischer (20:56)

And that's what we're going to talk about now. I want to credit Jerry Wagner — the idealized self-image concept, I think he was probably the pioneer of this idea. He's one of the older, founding-father figures of modern Enneagram psychology.

He talks about this "I am / I am not" binary construct. For Ones, the generally accepted core sense of self is: I am good. I am not bad. I'm not one of those bad people. I'm good.

Tyler Zach (21:52)

I don't park in handicap spots. I'm not that kind of person. I follow the rules. And therefore I am loved. I can have God's approval.

Lisa Vischer (21:56)

Exactly. And this is the fundamental problem with ego — it's trying to solve a love problem. It's trying to solve a spiritual problem fundamentally, because love is spiritual: God is love. Ego can't solve that problem, but it tries real hard.

So Ones will also think of themselves as being right, not wrong — I'm in the right, not in the wrong. Or I'm serious, not frivolous. I'm conscientious, not negligent. All of those things.

And when Ones are projecting their "not me" characteristics onto others, they can feel like they're surrounded by people who are careless and undisciplined and unprincipled — bad people. Which then explains all their attempts to reform. It all just makes perfect sense — which is one of the reasons I love the Enneagram.

Twos — we'll go a little faster now since we have the idea — the fundamental sense of self for Twos is: I am selfless. I am not selfish.

Tyler Zach (23:02)

All the Twos are starting to hide right now. It's hard for Twos to hear that.

Lisa Vischer (23:19)

So hard. And I'm glad you paused there, because so much of their giving and serving truly is selfless. It's not a hundred to zero. Twos also think of themselves as being loving, not withholding. Warm, not cold. Helpful, not needy — "I'm not the needy person."

And when Twos are projecting their "not me" characteristics onto others, they're going to feel like they're surrounded by people who are selfish and uncaring and cold and detached and thoughtless — which is pretty triggering if your whole construct of the world is warm, loving, and caring.

Tyler Zach (24:14)

Yeah. And I just want to say to Twos — even though it's hard to hear, the bad news leads to better news. When you hear the truth that you've been upholding this image of being a selfless person, you can realize that God doesn't love you because you're selfless. He loves you even when you're selfish. His love doesn't change for you even when you're throwing a selfish tantrum. So that's why it's okay to hear the bad news first — because it leads to better news.

Lisa Vischer (24:46)

That's right. And I'm going to add to that for not just Twos, but all nine types. A pearl of wisdom from my self-pres Five husband. I don't remember exactly what the circumstance was, but I was getting some new and distressing information about myself — something I was learning about how I was being viewed, or something I was discovering about my own patterns. And he just said: "Lisa, bad news is good data."

Tyler Zach (25:22)

I love that, coming from Phil as a Five.

Lisa Vischer (25:25)

He said, "It's okay. Bad news is good data." So the good news can be found in the bad news — which is exactly what you were just highlighting.

Okay, Threes. I know the word "success" is always linked to Threes, and that's not inaccurate. But I tend to think about it in terms of "to successfully do" — because we often think of success in a purely social way. But really for Threes it's: I am effective. I am not ineffective. Jerry Wagner calls Three "the effective person."

Tyler Zach (26:12)

Wrapped up in that is: I'm productive, efficient, effective.

Lisa Vischer (26:18)

Yes. It's really more: I am effective, I am not ineffective. I am capable, not incapable. Threes also think of themselves as hardworking and not lazy, efficient and not inefficient. Able to succeed at something — not the person who just fails at everything.

And when Threes are projecting their "not me" characteristics onto others — Tyler and I are both Threes, so we'll share with everybody — we can feel like we're surrounded by people who are slow and lazy and unmotivated and ambitionless. As if I'm never that, right? As if I'm never slow or never lazy or never unsuccessful. This is the work: seeing how ridiculous and unrealistic this idealization actually is.

Moving on to Fours: I am special. I am not ordinary. Maybe: I am extraordinary, not ordinary. Fours also think of themselves as authentic versus false, original versus conventional, passionate versus detached. But at the core, I'm special, I'm not ordinary. And that ends up creating a complete orientation in life around specialness and extraordinariness.

Not only do they have to maintain being special and extraordinary at all times to feel worthy of love, but that ends up coloring their whole world — everything needs to be special and extraordinary at all times — which is completely unsustainable and only leads to disappointment.

When Fours are projecting their "not me" characteristics onto others, they're surrounded in their minds by people who are insensitive, unrefined, tasteless, and especially superficial and shallow.

Tyler Zach (28:43)

I feel a lot of that. We better keep going.

Lisa Vischer (28:52)

Keep going — and just keep breathing, everybody.

Fives: I am knowledgeable. I am not incompetent. I am wise, not foolish. I am rational, not emotional. I am contained, not gushy. And they can feel surrounded by people who are foolish or uninformed or ignorant or not thinking.

Sixes: I am loyal. I am not disloyal. Sixes think of themselves as trustworthy, not untrustworthy. Responsible, not irresponsible. And ultimately, I am always loyal — I am never disloyal.

I like to think of this idealized sense of self through the language of "must," because some people hearing this about their type might think, "Well, I don't necessarily think I'm successful all the time, and I'm a Three." So think of it as: I must be successful. I must never fail.

Tyler Zach (29:51)

Good distinction.

Lisa Vischer (29:52)

I must be loyal. I must never be disloyal. So if you're struggling to see it in terms of absolute statements, think "I must."

When Sixes are projecting, they get triggered by people they view as unreliable and reckless and untrustworthy and deviant.

Sevens: I've heard some teachers say the core sense of self is I am okay. Not just "I am happy" — it's more like: I'm fine. I'm not upset. I'm not sad. I'm not negative. I am always, always okay. It's not that Sevens think they're 100% happy — they think they're 100% always okay and never not okay, especially emotionally. Sevens also think of themselves as optimistic, not pessimistic. Fun, not boring. And again it's that must: I must never not be okay.

And when they project out, they get triggered by people who seem super negative, super boring, humorless, unstable, or depressed.

Eights: I am strong. I am not weak. I must be strong, I must never be weak. Always tough, not soft. Always self-reliant, not needy. Always self-assured and confident, not insecure. And they tend to walk around the world and just see people as wimpy, deferential in a not-positive way, scared, or small.

And Nines: I am harmonious. I am not divisive. Or simply: I am peaceful, I am not divisive. They think of themselves as agreeable, not disagreeable. Cooperative, not pushy. Patient, not pushy. And they get triggered by seeing people who seem really harsh or really demanding or super opinionated and pushy.

So that's how the idealized self works for all nine types in a nutshell.

Tyler Zach (33:03)

And so you said we're trying to uphold this self that we think will make us lovable — by God and others. But then you also said there's an avoidance pattern that reinforces or protects that self-image.

Lisa Vischer (33:17)

Right. There's something each type needs to avoid at all costs because it doesn't line up with who they view themselves to be. And by avoiding it, they reinforce that idealized self-image. And so the avoidance becomes extremely unhelpful because it perpetuates the entire software programming. Part of how we disrupt that is working with the avoidance.

So — Ones avoid being wrong or in the wrong to maintain their self-image of being good and right. And the specific aspect of "wrong" that the One is trying to avoid is anger. It sounds like it might be a Nine thing, but Nines are avoiding conflict more than the actual feeling of anger. For the One, anger just feels like such a bad, wrong thing — and not controlling their anger feels very bad. So Ones are attempting to convert anger into a more acceptable form of energy, like constructive criticism.

Twos — their avoidance is themselves. Ones are avoiding anger; Twos are avoiding me, myself. Keeping the focus on others to maintain that self-image of being selfless. If your whole self-image is based on being a selfless person, what are you avoiding?

Tyler Zach (34:50)

Wow. Yourself.

Lisa Vischer (34:52)

Exactly. Less of me, more of you.

Threes avoid failure to maintain that self-image of being capable and successful. Every type has to go on a journey of self-observation and curiosity — in partnership with the Holy Spirit — to see how this is actually showing up in me, because we're unique people.

When I'm talking to Threes and trying to help someone identify if they're a Three, they'll often say, "I tend to only do the things I'm really good at." That's a really great example of this avoidance.

Tyler Zach (35:36)

I don't play board games that I know I'm going to lose. What's the point?

Lisa Vischer (35:40)

And it's actually even more deeply emotional than "what's the point," right? Because underneath it, there's anxiety — fear that's driving the ego and driving all of these type structures. There's just this anxiety around experiencing not doing well, not performing well, not being successful at what you're trying to do.

Tyler Zach (36:06)

I cried while playing Yahtzee as a kid with my parents during family game night because I kept losing. I lost multiple times and thought, I am a loser.

Lisa Vischer (36:16)

Right. Identification. Yeah.

And I'll just be super vulnerable and say — when you invited me to do this, I had to work through this exact avoidance. What do I have to offer? Am I going to do a good job? I've been working with the Enneagram so long and I'm so familiar with my type. That doesn't mean I do it well all the time, but I'm super aware. And this is what's so great about doing this work — the more we do it, the faster we can work through something that's standing in our way. It doesn't take two weeks or even a whole day. It can be just a moment of: there it is again. There's that avoidance of failure. And then basically not letting those feelings — and the avoidance pattern itself — make my decisions for me.

Fours avoid ordinariness to maintain that self-image of being different and authentic. And we talked about how that extrapolates out into wanting everything to be extraordinary at all times. Avoidance of ordinary can happen in the practical realm — I don't want McDonald's, I want an extraordinary meal. It can come in the relational realm — I want an extraordinary love. It can come in work, whatever it is. It's much bigger than just one area.

Fives: the avoidance is feelings of emptiness. They're avoiding emptiness by filling up on knowledge and any other resources they think are essential to their survival. All Fives share the filling up on knowledge, and they do that to maintain a self-image of being self-sufficient. I am sufficient, not insufficient. I don't need. I'm not empty. There's this terrifying feeling of being emptied out and completely helpless that Fives never want to feel.

And you can see how omniscience as a goal is one heck of a way to try to manage feelings of emptiness — kind of like a drug. The more data I can take in, the more I get that hit of: I'm not empty. More is coming in.

Sixes: you could say Sixes avoid deviance. The technical word is rejection. Sixes are really trying to avoid rejection and being cut off from support. The way that would happen is through deviance or disloyalty. So they're avoiding deviance to maintain that self-image of loyalty and devotedness — because if I'm loyal and devoted, I won't be rejected, and I won't be cut off from support.

Sevens are avoiding sadness to maintain that self-image of always being okay and happy.

Eights are avoiding vulnerability to maintain a self-image of being strong — and I would say, unhurtable. You can't hurt me.

And Nines are avoiding conflict to maintain a self-image of being peaceful, agreeable, and harmonious.

So the problem is that what we avoid doesn't really go away. We didn't resolve it — it just sits outside of our awareness, greatly influencing our behavior in ways that others can see but sometimes we can't.

Ones — we often know when you're angry even when you're not realizing it. Twos — we can sense your neediness even when you're not aware of it. We can sense the insecurity in Threes as much as they portray confidence. We can see the common humanity in Fours even when they're asserting their specialness. We can feel the emptiness and disconnection in a Five even when they're all up in their heads feeling filled up, at least from the neck up. Phil used to say he thought of himself as a brain walking around on a stick.

We can sense the anxiety in Sixes when they're fearfully avoiding rejection — we can sense when it's more fear-driven loyalty than just loyalty. We know when Sevens are suffering even when they insist they're not. We can see the vulnerabilities in Eights even when they don't. And we can feel the inner "no" of the Nine even when they're verbalizing agreement.

All of that to say: it's just hard to see this in ourselves. And people are a blessing and a help — able to reflect back to us what we can't see — because this software is so hardwired in and running that we don't always see it.

Tyler Zach (43:21)

So good. Do you want to give some tips or suggestions for what to do with all of this?

Lisa Vischer (43:24)

Information is fantastic, but if we don't know what to do with it, it becomes a little impotent. So — what do we do?

Let me start spiritually, because the core issue underneath all of this is this need for identity. Spiritually, we need to distinguish image from identity. That is conscious, intentional work — because they are so tangled up in our minds. What I call a divine untangling.

Image is visible, something that's seen. Identity is invisible and intrinsic. When we don't know who we are, we tend to confuse the two. So regularly rehearsing our core shared beloved identity — and the question, "Who does God say that I am?" — even when we don't feel like it's true, is when it's actually the most powerful.

So my first suggestion: understand and begin this untangling process between identity and image. Continually affirm and reaffirm your identity every day, multiple times a day. Rinse and repeat.

Then specifically, psychologically, here are two ways to work with the things we talked about today.

With regard to image — the first thing is to enlarge. This is Jerry Wagner's advice: to enlarge our self-concept to include both the "me" and the "not me." We need to reintegrate the parts of ourselves we haven't been able to hold. He suggests drawing a line down a piece of paper with two columns — "I am" and "I am not" — and write in the "I ams" on the left. Then write the opposites on the right. Sit with those "not me" words. Consider in what ways these things might actually be true, or at least part of you. See if you can hold both sides together with compassion and grace, and notice what happens as you bring forward that expanded understanding. It's really just telling the truth about the whole of who we are — and knowing that this does not in any way impact God's love for us.

And then as far as the avoidance — this is where things really get fun — what we want to do is move toward the things we're moving away from. Move toward what we fear. And this is why I don't know how this deep ego work can be done apart from a safe, permanent connection with perfect love, because all of this groundwork is fear work. That's what it is. Perfect love is what casts out fear. So that's why we have to do the identity work first.

Then, watch for God's invitation to move into the thing that scares you. Not as a Brownie Point exercise — "look at me, I'm running headlong into emptiness" — but more like following, letting God lead us toward what would be transformative for us.

Ones — work on accepting and moving toward your anger. See if it's as bad as it feels, and invite Jesus to move toward anger with you.

Twos — work on accepting and moving toward yourself and what you need. See if it's as selfish as it feels, and invite Jesus to move toward your heart with you.

Threes — work on accepting and moving toward failure. See if it's as fatal as it really feels, when you let Jesus move toward failure with you.

Fours — work on accepting and moving toward the ordinary parts of you and the ordinary parts of life. See if it's as insignificant as it feels when Jesus moves toward all of that with you.

Fives — accept and move toward feelings of incompetence and scarcity and emptiness. See if it's as futile as it feels when you let Jesus move toward that with you.

Sixes — accept and move toward feelings of rejection and the fear of deviance. See if that's as dangerous as it feels when Jesus moves toward that with you.

Sevens — move toward feelings of sorrow and grief. See if that's as permanent as you're afraid it is when Jesus moves toward that with you.

Eights — accept and move toward feelings of weakness and tenderness. See if that's as scary as it feels. And yes, I said scary, Eights. Let Jesus move toward vulnerability with you.

Nines — accept and move toward feelings of discomfort and tension. See if that's as unsurvivable as it feels when Jesus moves toward that with you.

Just look for his invitation to gently begin to relax some of that habit, so that we can experience more freedom and more ability to keep in step with the Spirit.

Tyler Zach (49:27)

Thank you so much for spending so much time pouring out your wisdom and spending time with me on the summit. I so appreciate having you on.

Lisa Vischer (49:35)

Thank you, Tyler. I'm so glad that more people are going to get to hear it. Thanks so much for having me on.

Tyler Zach (49:49)

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Before you go, take a moment to reflect on what Lisa shared. What kind of identity are you trying to build on your own? What image are you working so hard to project to the world in order to feel loved or respected? And what might change if you loosened your grip on that pursuit today — trusting that there is nothing you can do to make God or others love you any more or any less?

Remember: it's not just who you are, but whose you are that ultimately defines you.